An update on recent technical problems and more from the admin: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/250292/on-technical-difficulties-mod-coverage-and-other-things/p1?new=1
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Aegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
July 2
That's basically it for me. Diablo IV until recent patches just felt like they wanted to waste your time so you spent money in their microtransaction shop at the cost to the game itself. The story and atmosphere have faded away into running dungeons for squirrel testicl*s for a +1% difference to a piece of gear that you might randomly get, or some complete garbage.
Minding I am excited for Path of Exile 2, but that's because of the deep progression systems that game looks to have. I do miss the good old days of the original Diablo though.
The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
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-Loki- Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining. Registered User regular
July 2
I’ve never really enjoyed ARPGs.
I managed to force myself to finish Diablo 3 but every time I start another I never get far.
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Goumindong Registered User regular
July 2
The grind focused severed the interest.
A rpg needs a mix of interesting mechanics but also a functional story hook. This can be action or turn based or party but the idea of the game needs a goal and structure.
Else I would be playing mobile games instead if it’s entirely about “number go up”
+6
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surrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
July 2 edited July 2
ty for answers, just something i've been thinking about recently after playing d1
it's funny how much dna is in that game from dnd dungeon and item generation type thinking - and then gradually it got lost in a rush of people going "well arpgs have only ever been a slot machine" without ever asking why most of the people interested in these games to begin with were not interested in slot machines
the most interesting kind of successor to d2 for me would be one that went back a bit more in the direction of roguelikes and crpgs
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-Loki- Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining. Registered User regular
July 2
Specifically the item cycle annoys me a lot in ARPGs.
Coming from CRPGs where finding something other than a basic weapon is a rarity and you will very likely carry that for the rest of the adventure, I really disliked it in Diablo 3 when I’d find a badass weapon only to find a badasser weapon 2 minutes later, and an even badasser weapon 5 minutes later.
Give me time to have fun with it, don’t just cycle a slightly better one into my hands constantly.
+1
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Terrendos Decorative Monocle Registered User regular
July 2
I suppose it comes down to how broadly you define the genre. I did play a whole bunch of World of Warcraft for a few years before I discovered Diablo et al, and I think WoW burned out the part of my brain that would respond to that particular gameplay loop. I've tried Path of Exile, Diablo, and a few others in the time since, along with a handful of MMOs, but I always get bored after an hour or so.
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AspectVoid Registered User regular
July 2
surrealitycheck wrote: »
Here is a slightly odd question but just something I was wondering recently: presumably most of you who enjoy owlcat stuff are big cRPG fans in general. What do you think about aRPGs?
Something I idly wonder is if diablo 1/2 were things that many cRPG enjoyers played and enjoyed in a "play the campaign a few times but not long-term play" type deal back in the day, but the modern evolution of the genre with its very grind-focused design has severed the interest
So, serious question gets a serious answer. For me, what matters most in a game is how I emotionally connect to it. Sometimes that is co-op experiences with friends. Most often its about character and story in the game. It doesn't even have to be good characters and story, just characters and story that are meaty enough that I can understand and connect to them. That's why games like Elden Ring just feel mediocre to me, its got a bunch of interesting lore, but there isn't much for me to connect to on an emotional level (seriously, nearly every quest in Elden Ring ending in "and then they died" just killed any investment I had in that world).
The sad thing is that aRPGs most often end up in that spot, where there is so little done with story or character that it feels emotionally empty to me. Developers are so focused on the loot grind and level systems that they ignore creating compelling characters and story to drive the action forward. I will often play aRPGs because I keep hoping that one day they'll have a story and characters I can connect to, but for the most part they are so surface level that I just put them down and never think about them again.
PSN|AspectVoid
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Sir Fabulous Malevolent Squid God Registered User regular
July 2
I think I've played just about every major cRPG release the last decade, and I just cannot get into aRPGs.
On top of what was already mentioned, a few other points.
1. Gear in a cRPG is put there intentionally by a developer. aRPGs are governed by random drops. In both cases, you could argue a major gameplay loop is getting new gear, but, to the shock of nobody, gear that is intentionally given to you in specific quantities at specific times is usually balanced better than random gear. Leads to less "OMG I found the EXACT thing I needed at this specific moment" but also less "I've been grinding here for 2 hours and I haven't found a single upgrade."
2. cRPGs can award items for exploration, puzzle-solving, dialogue, etc. more easily than aRPGs (which are all about the combat). Sometimes it's equally nice to get a cool sword from solving a puzzle as it is to get one from slaying Mazarbor, Demon of Sin and Solitude.
3. The thematic resonance is really nice in cRPGs. You'll find magic armor in the tomb of a dead warrior, a crystal ball in a sorcerer's hut, and enchanted pipes in the realm of the fey. In aRPGs, you're equally likely to get Sword of Flaming +3 from a wolf as you are a bandit as you are a soldier. Feels weird to me.
4. I love planning builds and cRPGs let me add items to that in a very concrete way. Maybe a certain build is bad unless it has a specific item? I can guarantee I'll pick that item up. There's a pair of strong boots that you can get only in an out of the way, typically end-game area? What happens if you go there right after the tutorial and grab them? To me this opens up some really interesting possibilities that aRPGs lack with their consistent, relatively minor upgrades.
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+1
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Kane Red Robe Master of Magic ArcanusRegistered User regular
July 2
? Loot in both Divinity Original Sins (the games made by Larian before BG3) is randomly generated outside of quest rewards and boss gear.
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Jealous Deva Registered User regular
July 2
Kane Red Robe wrote: »
? Loot in both Divinity Original Sins (the games made by Larian before BG3) is randomly generated outside of quest rewards and boss gear.
I’ve seen people complain about that before.
I don’t care so much about that, I just feel like most of the time in the loot-focused arpg genre they just get so focused on the gameplay loop that everything else is secondary.
I wouldn’t mind probably a game with arpg combat mechanics that was more story focused or focused on exploration and atmosphere, there is nothing really wrong with that per se. Even something like darksiders genesis which doesn’t necessarily have a great story per se, but where the focus is on gameplay rather than loot. Or something that uses traditional action rpg mechanics in a new way, like Moonring uses traditional roguelike mechanics in a way that isn’t a roguelike.
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Goumindong Registered User regular
July 2
Divinity has the worst loot system oh my god
+1
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Etiowsa Registered User regular
July 2
Isn't divinity the one where you NEED current lvl gear or else you get splattered? So you're constantly crafting and scrounging?
Oh, I noticed a thing in wrath for the first time. When you fall into the chasm at the beginning of the game, the feather fall buff is actually visible for a few seconds after you land. Probably not news to anyone, but I thought it was cool.
+1
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Sir Fabulous Malevolent Squid God Registered User regular
July 2
Kane Red Robe wrote: »
? Loot in both Divinity Original Sins (the games made by Larian before BG3) is randomly generated outside of quest rewards and boss gear.
And that's one of the main criticisms I have with what are otherwise some really fun games.
But really in the Owlcat games thread I was focusing mostly on the system that Owlcat games has which is that outside of random encounters and some, like, minor RNG in things like the Kingmaker Artisan quests, you're going to be getting the same stuff in the same places every time.
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surrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
July 3
Sir Fabulous wrote: »
I think I've played just about every major cRPG release the last decade, and I just cannot get into aRPGs.
On top of what was already mentioned, a few other points.
1. Gear in a cRPG is put there intentionally by a developer. aRPGs are governed by random drops. In both cases, you could argue a major gameplay loop is getting new gear, but, to the shock of nobody, gear that is intentionally given to you in specific quantities at specific times is usually balanced better than random gear. Leads to less "OMG I found the EXACT thing I needed at this specific moment" but also less "I've been grinding here for 2 hours and I haven't found a single upgrade."
2. cRPGs can award items for exploration, puzzle-solving, dialogue, etc. more easily than aRPGs (which are all about the combat). Sometimes it's equally nice to get a cool sword from solving a puzzle as it is to get one from slaying Mazarbor, Demon of Sin and Solitude.
3. The thematic resonance is really nice in cRPGs. You'll find magic armor in the tomb of a dead warrior, a crystal ball in a sorcerer's hut, and enchanted pipes in the realm of the fey. In aRPGs, you're equally likely to get Sword of Flaming +3 from a wolf as you are a bandit as you are a soldier. Feels weird to me.
4. I love planning builds and cRPGs let me add items to that in a very concrete way. Maybe a certain build is bad unless it has a specific item? I can guarantee I'll pick that item up. There's a pair of strong boots that you can get only in an out of the way, typically end-game area? What happens if you go there right after the tutorial and grab them? To me this opens up some really interesting possibilities that aRPGs lack with their consistent, relatively minor upgrades.
yeah i think of these as broadly being the rewards of intentionality and consideration of those aspects by the developer
i think loot is a bit more fungible because it can be v fun to do eg souls randomiser runs but certainly the near-total absence of exploration/dialogue/puzzle solving gameplay in arpgs is kind of long-term sad i think
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Steel Angel Registered User regular
July 3
Goumindong wrote: »
The grind focused severed the interest.
A rpg needs a mix of interesting mechanics but also a functional story hook. This can be action or turn based or party but the idea of the game needs a goal and structure.
Else I would be playing mobile games instead if it’s entirely about “number go up”
On the first part at least, the Diablo 4 team at least partly recognizes that. After the backlash to 3, they set up a lot of systems to mirror 2's instead. But they started to quickly realize that people who played 2 back in the day are now 20 years older with less time and far more distractions so they've had to work to tone down the grind. How well they've done so is still a matter of discussion.
Big Dookie wrote: »
I found that tilting it doesn't work very well, and once I started jerking it, I got much better results.
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surrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
July 4 edited July 4
Steel Angel wrote: »
Goumindong wrote: »
The grind focused severed the interest.
A rpg needs a mix of interesting mechanics but also a functional story hook. This can be action or turn based or party but the idea of the game needs a goal and structure.
Else I would be playing mobile games instead if it’s entirely about “number go up”
On the first part at least, the Diablo 4 team at least partly recognizes that. After the backlash to 3, they set up a lot of systems to mirror 2's instead. But they started to quickly realize that people who played 2 back in the day are now 20 years older with less time and far more distractions so they've had to work to tone down the grind. How well they've done so is still a matter of discussion.
tbf this is a pretty common modern dev misconception about diablo 2 (not saying you're wrong - they might well have believed what they were doing reflected a return to what they thought was diablo 2 or w/e)
at some point one of the devs commented that they never had more than 5-10% of the total sale count as battle net accounts (as of that date - mid 2000s - people mass buying battle net accounts to bot and get round bans made the numbers nonsense later of course) - the game had a multiplayer component that a subset of players liked, but the vast vast majority of people who bought and played diablo 2 did it as a... single player game.
and diablo 2 released with literally no endgame
mmo mindset has kind of warped a lot of the retrospective view of this into saying "diablo 2 is the game that the most active subset of players who were hard grinding on b.net played" when that's simply just not why the game was successful at all. and you see this a lot in post-diablo arpgs; devs are chasing the dragon of a hallucinated perfect treadmill game that never existed. diablo 4's sins, i think, are much more to do with the fact that the concept of "endgame" is fundamentally insane and designing with that as your goal always produces a disaster until you can get enough content out there that you make the walls of the skinner box a little less naked
the funny thing about diablo is that a lot of the retrospective analysis reductively turns it into a slot machine without asking why it is that most of the people who liked diablo 1 and 2 aren't big slot machine enthusiasts
surrealitycheck on
+6
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Jealous Deva Registered User regular
July 4
The release of
surrealitycheck wrote: »
Steel Angel wrote: »
Goumindong wrote: »
The grind focused severed the interest.
A rpg needs a mix of interesting mechanics but also a functional story hook. This can be action or turn based or party but the idea of the game needs a goal and structure.
Else I would be playing mobile games instead if it’s entirely about “number go up”
On the first part at least, the Diablo 4 team at least partly recognizes that. After the backlash to 3, they set up a lot of systems to mirror 2's instead. But they started to quickly realize that people who played 2 back in the day are now 20 years older with less time and far more distractions so they've had to work to tone down the grind. How well they've done so is still a matter of discussion.
tbf this is a pretty common modern dev misconception about diablo 2 (not saying you're wrong - they might well have believed what they were doing reflected a return to what they thought was diablo 2 or w/e)
at some point one of the devs commented that they never had more than 5-10% of the total sale count as battle net accounts (as of that date - mid 2000s - people mass buying battle net accounts to bot and get round bans made the numbers nonsense later of course) - the game had a multiplayer component that a subset of players liked, but the vast vast majority of people who bought and played diablo 2 did it as a... single player game.
and diablo 2 released with literally no endgame
mmo mindset has kind of warped a lot of the retrospective view of this into saying "diablo 2 is the game that the most active subset of players who were hard grinding on b.net played" when that's simply just not why the game was successful at all. and you see this a lot in post-diablo arpgs; devs are chasing the dragon of a hallucinated perfect treadmill game that never existed. diablo 4's sins, i think, are much more to do with the fact that the concept of "endgame" is fundamentally insane and designing with that as your goal always produces a disaster until you can get enough content out there that you make the walls of the skinner box a little less naked
the funny thing about diablo is that a lot of the retrospective analysis reductively turns it into a slot machine without asking why it is that most of the people who liked diablo 1 and 2 aren't big slot machine enthusiasts
I felt like the big reason I got hooked on WoW but the diablo games just didn’t do much.
In Wow you always knew there was new content coming down the line.
In diablo 2 it was more “what do you do after you kill diablo?” “Kill him in nightmare”. What then?” “Kill him in hell.”
What do you get for killing diablo? sh*t to kill Diablo better. Um ok…
Wow basically follows a similar loop, but every few months theres new sh*t to do. It wasn’t just “kill onxyia, then use those weapons to kill progressively harder versions of Onyxia for all eternity.”
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Kane Red Robe Master of Magic ArcanusRegistered User regular
July 4
Yeah I mean I've put a couple hundred hours into D2 but it was always either a single player campaign to beat Diablo/Bhaal in normal or a co-op campaign with 1-2 friends until we got bored somewhere in Nightmare mode. It was never a grind game for me. (Tbh in most cases we modded the game to increase drop rarity).
+1
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Dr. Chaos Post nuclear nuisance Registered User regular
July 4
Mmm. That feeling when you spent the entirety of act 2 exploring every single planet and then being able to spam colony projects when act 4 start.
Pokemon GO: 7113 6338 6875/ FF14: Buckle Landrunner /Steam Profile
+2
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Goumindong Registered User regular
July 4
Even if you did play a lot of d2 it was usually as a challenge or a new class. “Get to level 100” was done by a few people but very rarely would anyone play after that.
Except to do it again. “Fastest to 100 hardcore”. Sure. Ladder challenges? Sure.
But very rarely would you keep going on the same character.
Now, ladder challenges and seasons have kind of done this for that subset. But they always keep adding new stuff and that is where the disconnect happens. Unless you’re playing from the start it’s a bunch of gobldegook. And eventually it all becomes too much.
So the proper answer is to make a fun game to replay though and make a bunch of different ways to replay it. But still have like, a designated end goal.
+1
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Dr. Chaos Post nuclear nuisance Registered User regular
July 5 edited July 5
Well, good news and bad news.
*Rogue Trader Act 4*
Good news is I think I managed to redeem Calligo Winterscale (the bath salts and cocaine rogue trader). Bad news he can't walk anymore becuase his back is broken so I guess you can't recruit him as an iconoclast?
You would think that would be an easy fix with all the chrome going around.
Dr. Chaos on
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surrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
July 5 edited July 5
Goumindong wrote: »
Even if you did play a lot of d2 it was usually as a challenge or a new class. “Get to level 100” was done by a few people but very rarely would anyone play after that.
Except to do it again. “Fastest to 100 hardcore”. Sure. Ladder challenges? Sure.
But very rarely would you keep going on the same character.
Now, ladder challenges and seasons have kind of done this for that subset. But they always keep adding new stuff and that is where the disconnect happens. Unless you’re playing from the start it’s a bunch of gobldegook. And eventually it all becomes too much.
So the proper answer is to make a fun game to replay though and make a bunch of different ways to replay it. But still have like, a designated end goal.
I often think a d2 successor that was explicitly a medium run length (5-10 hour maybe) actual honest to god roguelite/like but with serious budget would be really fun. it always seemed an accident of game design fashion diablo as a series didn’t end up with an explicit repeat run structure
anyway I have downloaded wrath of the righteous time to see if my ancestral distaste for 3.5 holds after so many years of pathfinder being its own thing
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-Loki- Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining. Registered User regular
July 5
I had a conversation with a co-worker about Diablo 3 because I was doing Guess the Game and Diablo Immortal was the game.
He asked if I’d played them and I said I finished Diablo 3 and it was fun, and he said ‘I don’t know how anyone finishes Diablo 3’.
I said I saw the ending cutscene and credits, and uninstalled it. Then there was the talk about seasons and you can’t finish it because there’s always a new season to play again.
The idea of ‘I beat the story and the credits rolled, I’m done’ wasn’t finishing the game.
+3
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Hevach Registered User regular
July 5
There's different levels of beating a game. There's the designated final challenge, the unlocked post game content, the optional sidequests, the random meaningless mapclutter.
Most importantly there's "Done" - as in "I have no need or desire to experience any more of this game and will play something else now."
+3
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Dr. Chaos Post nuclear nuisance Registered User regular
July 5
And yeah, I really hope Larian drops the Diablo style loot in their next Divinity. It feels terrible.
Pokemon GO: 7113 6338 6875/ FF14: Buckle Landrunner /Steam Profile
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Aegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
July 5
What? Every single thing is fixed and has no random rolls etc. There are no more weird collections of items in Divinity or BG3 than Wrath. Hell Wrath has more random build defining stuff than you can shake a stick at, like the glorious ring that makes all your damage force damage.
The Roleplayer's Guild: My blog for roleplaying games, advice and adventuring.
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Maddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
July 5
I very clearly remember people save scumming chests in OS2
+1
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Dr. Chaos Post nuclear nuisance Registered User regular
July 5
Aegeri wrote: »
What? Every single thing is fixed and has no random rolls etc. There are no more weird collections of items in Divinity or BG3 than Wrath. Hell Wrath has more random build defining stuff than you can shake a stick at, like the glorious ring that makes all your damage force damage.
Picking up loot in Divinity OS games always feels like getting a ton of random vendor garbage to me.
Gearing up in those games just never had any stand out moments for me where I felt I had really amassed a cool legendary armory by the end.
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Aegeri Tiny wee bacteriums Plateau of LengRegistered User regular
July 6 edited July 6
Now that is a complaint I can 100% understand. The items/stuff in Divinity 2 was the most underwhelming part of the game by miles, with a couple of fun exceptions.
Aegeri on
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Goumindong Registered User regular
July 6
Items in divinity OS 1/2 scaled by 10% per level and you had a 1 AP penalty for over-leveled gear. But the 10% wasn’t linear. A lvl 13 sword Vs a level 15 sword wasnt 130% vs 150%. The level 15 weapon did 21% more damage. So you absolutely had to upgrade almost as soon as you leveled up. You always had to be searching for new equipment that worked with your build and or entirely swapping it around. Just absolutely the worst
+3
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surrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
July 6
levelling up and getting a penalty from automated scaling should be quite literally illegal
vote for me and i will prosecute
+6
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surrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
July 6
finally... some good f*ckin scrolls
these demons boutta find out about the reading painbow
+6
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Jealous Deva Registered User regular
July 6
Starting a new run to hopefully finally finish wotr and do the dlc.
Core difficulty to start, we’ll see how it goes.
Plan is 4 Demonslayer ranger/ 12 sohei / finish ranger. Wanted a pet and monk stuff but didn’t really want to do the mounted thing…
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surrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
July 6 edited July 6
dude can u imagine how hard a scroll wizard anime would go
he has backup bifocals built into the rim of his wizard hat in case of emergencies
his huge wizard sleeves contain magazine-fed sprint-loaded scroll launchers attached to his wrists. he practices speedreading every day to optimise his spell output. hes on the phone with busta rhymes for rapid enunciation techniques and he does 2 hours of mandatory cunniling*s a day to keep the tongue strong
the bumper sticker says "I scroll nat 20s"
his library card is tatooed over his heart so he cant lose it
surrealitycheck on
+5
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Jealous Deva Registered User regular
July 6
Blah I’m terrible at altitis in this game , now I am second guessing myself and wondering about doing Quarterstaff master/primalist instead of demonslayer/sohei.
No pet, but free trips, better ac over the long run less reach, barbarian and bloodrager abilities…
Eh, maybe for the dlc or another playthrough. At some point I would love to try instinctual warrior as well.
I’ve had to implement a personal house rule of 2 classes + prestige maximum, 4 level minimum per class to try to tamp down my inner minmaxer.
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surrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
July 6
i feel like you gotta rp the choices
like going arcane bomber and blasting nothing but this on loop
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Jealous Deva Registered User regular
July 6 edited July 6
surrealitycheck wrote: »
i feel like you gotta rp the choices
like going arcane bomber and blasting nothing but this on loop
“I’m just a humble edritch dragon scion who joined an order of paladins for a while before dropping out, spent a couple of months with some scaled fist monks, became an archeologist for a bit, studied under a vivisectionist, then finally joined a dragon cult and became a dragon disciple.”
Jealous Deva on
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Maddoc I'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother? Registered User regular
July 6
As generally good as Demon Slayer is, I'm real tempted to check out Sable Company Marine
Then again, I do like mounted combat
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Jealous Deva Registered User regular
July 6 edited July 6
Yeah I just really didn’t want to do the mounted thing and wanted a weapon using monk.
It looks like it gets a lot of useful stuff though.
I guess I could have gone full sohei still but it would have been weird to have a horse tagging along as a pet and not riding it.
“That’s Binky - I don’t ride horses, he just likes me and follows me around for some reason. Every once in a while I throw him a carrot.”
Jealous Deva on
+1
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Dr. Chaos Post nuclear nuisance Registered User regular
July 7 edited July 7
Holy sh*t..
*Rogue Trader act 4*
You can actually equip the halo device?
Quite looking forward to becoming a cannibal lizard man on my next playthrough.
Sadly, not to be on this one. I'm a good guy so I'm going to do the heroic thing and send this to cargo so it can get sold causing untold calamities and horrors elsewhere.
Dr. Chaos on
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![[Owlcat][Pathfinder][Rogue Trader] is out now! - Page 67 (11)](https://i0.wp.com/orthanc.co.nz/forum_stuff/pickup-sig.php?name=Orthanc "[Owlcat][Pathfinder][Rogue Trader] is out now! - Page 67 (11)")
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